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Xerxes Break
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PostSubject: Chapter 65   Sat Sep 17, 2011 1:56 pm

raws are now out Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Chapter 65   Sat Sep 17, 2011 2:18 pm

Downloaded and saw the scans.

All I can say is... nothing. I'm totally speechless right now. T___T
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter 65   Sat Sep 17, 2011 2:22 pm

i agree with leah totally speechless and extremley sad chapter Sad

Spoiler:
 

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PostSubject: Re: Chapter 65   Sat Sep 17, 2011 2:25 pm

OMG is jack really the true villian O.O

http://forums.mangafox.com/showthread.php?t=296973

if jack really is the villian could it be that

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PostSubject: Re: Chapter 65   Sat Sep 17, 2011 2:53 pm

What....is this unexpected plot twist we're seeing?!?!?!?! oAo
This is one heck of a plot twist!!!!!

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PostSubject: Re: Chapter 65   Sat Sep 17, 2011 3:37 pm

i do have to say i don't think Gil will die but it's hard to tell on what will happen with leo


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PostSubject: Re: Chapter 65   Sat Sep 17, 2011 4:54 pm

Spoiler:
 


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PostSubject: Re: Chapter 65   Sat Sep 17, 2011 8:40 pm

Holy sugar!!! If this is actually true, im going NUTS!!!!
I always liked Glen and i felt sorry for him...but now....O_o (And i never really liked Oz and Jack but I didnt think this....)
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter 65   Sat Sep 17, 2011 10:47 pm

Read the chapter translation and some spoilers so far... and some of it was forciable. Except for the whole Leo thing. ;A;

Overall? I'm in shock over this whole thing, it throws everything we beleived right out the window, but makes so much sense in the long run. Like Zai's hate for Oz, and Vincents reason for being with the Baskervilles...

MochiJun is the troll of all trolls. I swear. =_=


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PostSubject: Re: Chapter 65   Sun Sep 18, 2011 12:45 am

Spoiler:
 

Seriously, after reading the translations, I almost cried.
Jack's betrayal was...heartbreaking...
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter 65   Sun Sep 18, 2011 2:24 am

I feel violated. o.o

I think we've all suspected there was something "off" about Jack.

I don't know if Jack is "bad," though...
everything's just reversed now
we don't know what Jack wants
any more than we knew what Glen wanted

I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO DO WITH THE OTHER FLASHBACKS

<333 Vince confessing love to Gil >^.^<
<333 Gil on top of Vince >^.^<
<333 Gil taking hit for Vince >^.^<

...I always did think Gil's durable-ness was suspicious... >_>;;

Oz with Leo was great, and the Elliot flashback. <3

Who let Break out of his cage?! Stop fighting, dammit!

If Barma actually wanted to kill Cheryl he would've cut her head off.
.
.
.
I have no idea what to make of any of this.
I'll have to read the chapter again when it's scanlated... and then probably re-read the whole series... o.o


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PostSubject: Re: Chapter 65   Sun Sep 18, 2011 2:42 am

..............JUN. YOU. F*CKING. TROLL. MY BRAIN. sdkjbshjcbsdkvsd

Spoiler:
 

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PostSubject: Re: Chapter 65   Sun Sep 18, 2011 12:58 pm

Spoiler:
 
Just re-read PH, and I noticed something, at chapter 19 when Jack apologizes to Gil and says "Those things a 100 years ago, to you and that girl, are a scar that can never be wiped away." did he mean... what he did with Gil and Glen? (something that's called my attention is how many times Gil's been near death and scaped, could it mean something?
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter 65   Sun Sep 18, 2011 10:01 pm

There seems to be a major conspiracy going on if all the history books have Jack as the hero of all this. Barma house are the historians and the record keepers. They were the ones who created the seals, except Jack had them use Glen's body. Always did think it was odd for Jack to just give up his own body like that, lol (especially to seal GLEN, how would that even work? XD). This is further reinforced by Miranda's presence at the Tragedy, Arthur as the eyewitness, and Rufus' actions now. I do think Rufus is working for the greater good, and possibly trying to untangle the conspiracy, but I think the Barma house is largely responsible for 100 years of misinformation... and possibly helped Jack brainwash Gil, Vince, and etc with different memories.

...Oh but, when would they have time to tinker with their memories? Both Gil and Vince got sucked into the Abyss during the Tragedy, and Gil still thought of Glen as his master during that ordeal.

However, I also think that Gil might've become a Baskerville from the ceremony Glen performed on him that Vince was trying to interrupt. Something happened during some Glen-related ceremony, since Raven said that's when Gil first tried to contract with him. I don't think we have anything close to the full story yet. Maybe Glen brainwashed Gil? Okay, just never mind, I have no idea. XD

EDIT: Okay, everybody, DON'T PANIC!! Possible explanation incoming:
All the flashbacks of Gil and Vince being Jack's servants are true, no brainwashing necessary (except for the hooded lady that brainwashed Gil, who knows when/why). But when Glen needed a new body, he claimed Gil. "Ownership" of Gil therefore transferred to Glen,* so that's why during Tragedy Gil called Glen "Master" (and why Glen was concerned about him). When Gil ran in between Jack and Glen, he wasn't in his typical single-minded mode of "MUST PROTECT MASTER." He was only confused, asking "why are they fighting??" He liked both of them, thought it was strange for them to be at odds, and just wanted to break up the fight. Gil was very surprised that Jack slashed him; he didn't see either one of them as his enemy.

What was Glen's role during tragedy? Glen had explained that he simply wants to restore the Abyss back to the harmonious Golden World that it was. But, to do this, he had to sacrifice a lot of people. He was the one who ordered the Baskervilles to massacre the people at the mansion. This is backed up by the Baskervilles' memories of massacring the people.

What was Jack's role during tragedy? Jack had been very sad about Lacie, but it seems like he got over it, for the most part, during the flashbacks we've seen of him with Glen. However, he developed a relationship with Alice, Lacie's anagram and lookalike - possibly daughter or sister. He was content with this. When Glen told Jack about his plans, Jack's reaction was "...want to use Alice?!" Thus displaying his consistent pattern of being overprotective of Alice. His reason for clashing with Glen, and whoever he may have killed during the Tragedy, would have been with the motive to protect Alice. He did show remorse for slashing Gil, though (Jack's sword is bloody here, consistent with him slashing Gil).

Lacie was sacrificed to the Abyss. As emissaries of the Abyss, the Baskervilles may have been the ones to carry that out. Though Jack accepted this with time, when he saw Glen about to do it again to Alice, he couldn't let that happen and lost it. Overwhelmed by his obsession with Lacie/Alice, Jack slashing Gil could've been an extension of the betrayal and/or bitterness he was feeling about Glen taking from him everything he cared about... Lacie, his servant, and now Alice. He did show remorse for slashing Gil (Jack's sword is bloody here, consistent with him slashing Gil), and was crying the whole time, too.

I don't think Vince had any idea that Jack snapped or that Jack slashed Gil, which is why Vince still thinks/speaks highly of Jack. Vince did see Jack badly wounded after his fight with Glen, but he's never blamed Glen (or he wouldn't have allied with Baskervilles and Gleo), he thinks "everyone became weird because of Alice."

*This is probably when Gil was made a Baskerville, in preparation for becoming Glen's vessel. It might actually explain a line Alice said to Vince which has been bothering me for ages: "I heard your brother [will be] killed by Glen!" + next page. Maybe that's how you can create an immortal like a Baskerville aside from the "lights" choosing you. Maybe the "lights" choose you at the brink of death, actually... that's what happened to Lily. Except... Gil is able to age, but the other Baskervilles don't age. *scratches head* Then again, Gil wasn't just picked to be a Baskerville, he was picked to be Glen's new vessel. I doubt that Glen intended to stay little Gil his whole life, so maybe the Glens are special and do age... or maybe Vince interrupted something... okay, I give up.


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PostSubject: Re: Chapter 65   Mon Sep 19, 2011 4:20 am

here is my thought on Chapter 65

Spoiler:
 
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter 65   Mon Sep 19, 2011 7:26 am

Spoiler:
 


Last edited by Konpeito on Mon Feb 04, 2013 8:01 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : (I had villain in the post also, you knew what I meant))
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter 65   Tue Sep 20, 2011 5:12 am

I just had to drop by and see what everyone's saying!
Love the ideas, especially about the Barma family possibly spreading misinformation over the years. Wouldn't it be deliciously ironic in true PH fashion if Rufus (the man obsessed with information and truth) turns out to be promoting a lie-filled history?

Spoiler:
 
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter 65   Tue Sep 20, 2011 8:15 am

I am not even outright saying that Glen hasn't been Gil's Master all along. The memories we have could be interpreted as consistent with either scenario, without the need for brainwashing (there'd be no time to brainwash them anyway, aside from hooded lady, since both Gil and Vince fell into the Abyss during the Tragedy with their memory intact). But, really, all we've learned in this chapter is that Gil called Glen "Master" at 2 points in time and that Jack is (also?) obsessed with Lacie. We don't know what Jack did yet, and so far there's no concrete reason to doubt that Glen gave the order to massacre the mansion.*

I'm sure that Jack did something terribly misguided (I've always thought of Glen as the wiser and long-sighted of the two), but I think it's too early to jump on his intentions and accuse him of being a complete selfish bastard just yet, even if the accusation may prove to be true as the story develops. He feels remorse about slashing Gil and about killing Glen, and somebody who has such pain can't be typecast as evil. I think the new developments have the potential to make Jack an infinitely more interesting, complicated, and sympathetic character - if done right, which I trust Jun to do.

Personally, I'd be very disappointed if anyone's memories were tampered with against their will. Not because it would reflect badly on Jack, but because it would taint the sanctity of PH as an exploration of how people mess up themselves. I've always seen PH as a brilliant cautionary tale about half-remembered truths and the dangers of misinterpreting them. An external force replacing memories would greatly undermine that theme. Gil was brainwashed to protect his Master, but that only affected behavior, not his memories (as far as we know)... I hope behavior is the extent of any brainwashing that may have taken place.

*Aside from the suddenness of it and the fact that Glen's back was turned and he was blacked out. But Glen was never properly shown at that point in the series, and if he didn't give the order, he could've told the Baskervilles to stop as soon as he saw what they were doing... unless he was busy with Jack. Either way, the double border on the text bubble means that whoever said it was a Baskerville, a chain, or otherwise linked to the Abyss.


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PostSubject: Re: Chapter 65   Tue Sep 20, 2011 8:49 pm

I like what you said there, RedEyeGhost.

The scene with the old hag that looked like brainwashing could also be interpreted as the old hag reminding Gilbert of his obligations to his master.

I wouldn't be surprised if Gil were a servant to Glen at one point, then after Glen was sealed away, he became a servant to Jack.

In the Sept page of the 2011 PH calendar, Jack is shown holding a yellow rose, which I think is symbolic of jealousy. There are a lot of places one could take the story with that in mind.
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter 65   Wed Sep 21, 2011 2:28 am

Reim Lunettes wrote:
In the Sept page of the 2011 PH calendar, Jack is shown holding a yellow rose, which I think is symbolic of jealousy. There are a lot of places one could take the story with that in mind.
Yeah, definitely! Jun has used Victorian flower symbolism before, and a yellow rose means jealousy. Hmm. We do still have Glen mumbling "Lacie" for an unknown reason. Maybe he's lamenting Jack's obsession, maybe he's voicing disapproval of something Lacie did, or maybe both Jack and Glen loved her. Maybe Jack didn't lie about Glen loving Lacie? I somehow trust Jack when he told Oz that one day he'll explain everything.

Also somebody pointed out to me that there's silhouettes of Gil on Glen's side and Vince on Jack's side. Pretty nifty!

Reim Lunettes wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if Gil were a servant to Glen at one point, then after Glen was sealed away, he became a servant to Jack.

But, err, Gil disappeared into the Abyss with Vince during the Sablier Tragedy, so I don't think he could be around after Glen was sealed.


Regarding Jack Slashing Gil
I'm not sure if Jack ever lied, even when he said that Gil protected him 100 years ago. Jack says 2 separate things, actually. He tells Gil to "make sure you protect him properly this time, all right?" and he also tells Gil "you protected me." Both could be true. Gil keeps having the recurring flashback of his wounded Master(?). The sleeve could be either Jack's or Glen's. Yet in the flashback we got in 65, neither Glen nor Jack were on the ground bleeding. Also, when Gil first showed up in modern times, he had bandages on his head and face, and the Jack slashing scene we have so far doesn't account for this.

This makes me think that Gil recovered after being slashed by Jack and went looking for Jack and Glen again. He found them fighting with swords this time, and both probably badly hurt, but maybe Glen had the upper hand. But Gil didn't want Jack and Glen fighting or killing each other. Maybe he thought that if Glen kills Jack he'd regret it later, the same way he protected Zai from Oz at the coming of age ceremony despite his dislike of Zai. So then maybe, as Glen was about to kill Jack, Gil jumped between them and did indeed protect Jack, thus allowing Jack to counter and kill Glen instead. Alternately, Gil freaking out over Oz protecting him, saying he should protect someone like him, and that protecting Master should be Gil's job, could point to Glen getting killed protecting Gil in this scenario. Either way, this would be where the bloody sleeve/hand memory comes from.

That is probably where little Vincent picked up the wounded Gil and saw Jack all bloody (as he later told Alyss). I mean, Glen was dead and Jack was bloody and looked dead by then. Vince could only carry Gil so he grabbed him and ran.

Although there might be some potential lying and/or manipulation here + 2 pages. Hard to tell for now.


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PostSubject: Re: Chapter 65   Wed Sep 21, 2011 3:35 am

@RedEyeGhost I had forgotten that Gil appeared to have gotten thrown into Abyss right after he was apparently slashed from behind.

There is definitely a lot of stuff that happened 100 years ago, and we don't yet have the timeline for it all.

There is Jack saying he doesn't want to kill his best friend for example...I can only theorize that this would have happened before Glen was sealed away, don't know for sure.
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter 65   Wed Sep 21, 2011 6:08 pm

Regarding Jack/Oz, Memory, and Brainwashing
Now I see why Break said "Don't you think the story of 'Hero's Reincarnation' is very lame? They should use a more interesting, plot-twisting way..."* XD Dammit, Break, are you never wrong?? Oz is Oz, Leo is Leo, although they both have similarities with Jack and Glen. I still think that Oz's balance of caring and shrewdness might help explain Jack in some way. Oz can be very devious and manipulative when he wants to. Oz's uncanny ability to hide his pain could also help explain Jack's apparent cheerfulness in the flashbacks with Glen.

I think Jack only goes insane when it comes to Lacie or Alice. A yandere, I suppose. Maybe not too different from Vincent towards Gil in that way. "Remember, Vincent, if someone tries to take the ones you love most away from you, FUCKING MURDER THEM!!" But Jack really does feel tortured by everything that happened... about Glen, and about Gil and Alice too. He's also surprised that Gil doesn't remember, which is further evidence that it's unlikely he messed with anyone's memories. Though all the scenes with Jack are tainted with doubt for now, I do think he's being genuine for the most part, at least about his feelings. What he says may be vague but, so long as he's not outright lying, I've always admired creative truth-telling. He's not being entirely honest, of course, since he's keeping secrets... but he admits to this, too, and seems as much protective as he is manipulative in doing so. I think he's slowly working his way up to the truth, whenever he thinks people are ready to hear it, or whenever it serves his goals best, or a bit of both.

Regarding brainwashing in general... Gil's headaches worry me. Whenever he tries to remember, he gets migraines bad enough to pass out. Alice gets very anxious and scared, but never as bad as Gil. Nobody else shows the memory-related symptoms that Gil does, which might be evidence of tampering. Then again, it could just be that Gil, hypersensitive emotional trainwreck that he is, is just more acutely/physically affected by such trauma. He also had physical head injuries when he first showed up in present times, so that could account for some of the amnesia. Plus Gil is so naturally impressionable that I'm not even sure if whatever the hooded lady did to him was outright brainwashing. Because, by that standard, Vince might've been brainwashed too. The speech bubbles of what Miranda said to Vince are the same color as the "brainwashing" of Gil's behavior. Maybe both were done by the Barmas, or even Barma sorcerers. However, Jack has a slightly suspicious scene with Gil where it seems he takes advantage of this. He holds his hand the same way that the hooded lady did when he tells a rather hypnotized-looking Gil to go protect his Master. (But this could also be explained as a gesture for the teleportation he performed on Gil.)

*Yen Press translates it as "...doesn't 'reincarnation' sound cheap? They should've called it something fancier." I checked the raw volume and that is what the Japanese says. I think Black Abyss was translating the chapters as they were coming out so it makes me wonder if it was a slip up and Jun fixed the quote between the GFantasy release and when the actual volume came out. It's happened before, like when Sharon first said "brother Jack" and Jun admitted it was a mistake and it was changed to "bother Xerx" in the volume release.

Maybes
Vincent is really great at looking innocent while hiding his motives, too. Maybe he learned from the best. Maybe Jack is somewhere between Oz and Vincent, although for now I think he's more like Oz. Maybe after Jack found Gil and Vince, him and Glen split them up like kittens, and Jack took Vince and Glen took Gil. Maybe Vince is more like Jack and Gil is more like Glen. Maybe Jack and Glen shared Gil and Vince as mutual servants. We have flashbacks of Gil serving tea to Jack. Maybe maybe maybe...
.
.
.
What I'm wondering is how Jack ended up ragged in the streets if he was from a quasi-noble family. Did he run away for a while? Why? And why didn't he give his family name?

Also, how come the Baskervilles don't recognize Gil if he served Glen that whole time? I guess maybe because he's older now, but Zwei saw him as a kid and still didn't react much. Maybe Zwei is new.


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PostSubject: Re: Chapter 65   Wed Sep 21, 2011 9:44 pm

"creative truth-telling." Oh yes! I love that, too, and I think much of Pandora Hearts is that.

Speaking of mistakes and typos in the original, one of Jun's blog entries said there was a type a few chapters back. I can't remember which chapter now, but I wish I knew what the typo was and if it was important. That's interesting about the Brother Jack/Xerx thing. I have the Japanese volume and it says Xerx, but I had no idea that it said Jack in the original. So I guess it wasn't mistranslated by the scanlation team after all.

I always felt a bit uncomfortable with the idea that Jack was reincarnated into Oz. For one thing, I don't really believe in reincarnation. Then there's the root of the word, "carn" which means "body." If one's body dies and turns into another body, where does the soul fit? People always talk about reincarnation as if it is the soul that moves to a new body. I got confused about this again a few chapters back when there was all that talk about Humpty Dumpty being created from Glen's body, and protecting Glen's soul (which now resides in Leo). Makes my head spin.

Good point about Vincent looking innocent while hiding his motives and possibly learning that from Jack. He might have learned his flirtaciousness from Jack as well.

Also a good point about the Baskervilles not recognizing Gil. You'd think if he was a Baskerville, too, at least Zwei wouldn't be so hell bent on messing with him. But maybe they resent Gil for whatever role he played in sealing Glen away and protecting Jack. From the perspective of ch 38, it seems like Glen was the master who Gil could not protect.

As for Jack ending up ragged in the streets…generally in this story, when someone ends up ragged and needing to be taken in, it is because they just got cast out of Abyss. Which leads me to a crack theory of mine: At the end of the story, Oz ends up in Abyss. He ages a few years, then gets spat out of Abyss. Ends up on the street there. And for whatever screwy reason, he calls himself Jack. That would make the story come full circle in a midscrewy way.
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter 65   Fri Sep 23, 2011 10:11 pm

Fallen Syndicate release is also out here.

But you can also check the site reader in a short while and read it there.
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter 65   Sat Sep 24, 2011 3:50 am

I feel like my heart was ripped out, torn to pieces, and then put back together stronger and better than before. I love you, Jack!! *_* For vastly different reasons now, but I still love you...

I dedicate this song to you and Lacie.
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