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phkuro



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PostSubject: possible explanations   Sat Sep 24, 2011 9:38 am

It may be interpreted that Glen is the true master of Gil and Vincent but Gil just wants to call Jack master which was just copied by Vince.

The Tragedy of Sablier might have started from the death of Lacie whom Jack loved (Lacie was sacrificed in a ceremony by the Baskervilles). According to the time frame, it can be supposed that Jack accepted Lacie’s death through Alice. But, when one day, Glen told him that they needed Alice to be sacrificed to obtain the harmony or the will (?) of the Abyss, he lost his mind which explains the scene where Glen and Jack were confronting each other. Then, Gil came to the scene and was stabbed in the back by Jack – is Gil also a Baskerville by this time (healing of wounds)? Jack and Glen continued their confrontation somewhere else until Glen kills Jack. Then, Glen sacrificed his body to seal Jack’s “mind”(?) or maybe the Abyss so that the world will regain its order or both. The thing is, the Barmas, the keepers of history, tampered with the original story and made Jack the hero (maybe because of their selfish motives, as demonstrated by Miranda Barma when she was talking to Vincent) so that they can recreate the Tragedy of Sablier. In the case of supposedly Glen’s order to the other Baskervilles to kill a lot of people, I’m thinking that they might have been used to frame Glen.

Meanwhile, Vincent was told by Alice that Gil was going to be used as the next vessel for Glen’s body and Gil is going to die. Maybe, when he heard that, he decided to find Jack and ask him about it. But, when he found him, he might have already been wounded (then went away again to go and tell Alice(?) about it?). Here, they might have fought to the point that Vincent killed Alice. Afterwards, he discovers the ceremony where Glen’s soul was being transferred to Gil’s body – maybe to save Gil? But he stopped it. And then, he was approached by Miranda Barma so as to make him open the Abyss (I’m I right?). And we are taken to the “present”…and left with one last question(?). Who is Alice?
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RedEyedGhost

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PostSubject: Re: Chapter 65   Sat Sep 24, 2011 9:55 am

More on the Barmas, plus Jack's Power
I'm actually starting to think that maybe both Jack and Glen were set up by the Barmas. Jack was certainly not happy about what went down at Sablier, and now his soul is in pieces... why? Before I had assumed it was because he used his own body to seal Glen, and the magical dismemberment of his body as part of a spell also dismembered his soul. But now we know that's not true. The Barmas were the ones casting the sealing spells, they were the ones who got Vince to open the Abyss gate, and it's likely they were the ones who brainwashed Gil's behavior, so maybe they screwed Jack over too.

Actually, the creepiest part of chapter 65 for me is this page, where Oz is unconscious in the "Jack dimension." My initial reaction was "oh shit, Leo!" quickly followed by "oh, nevermind, Jack's distracted lulz." But why is Oz unconscious? In the past he was sometimes huddling scared, sometimes just sitting around helpless, but now he's totally out. Jack has explained before that he can't possess Oz for long "in this state," but that was many many chapters ago. Back when I thought Jack's body was used to seal away Glen's soul, I thought that Jack's body parts getting unsealed also strengthened the manifestation of Jack's soul. It still seems like Jack is growing stronger as more of the seals are shattered, but now I have no direct explanation for it... unless, of course, the sorcerers used Glen's body to seal Jack's soul instead... but that would contradict the fact that Jack cooperated with them. Anyway, assuming Jack's soul is growing stronger, he may be able to take over Oz for longer periods of time, and this might be more draining on Oz's soul while in the "Jack dimension." That's the more, err, quasi-benign explanation for why Oz is knocked out right now. >_>;

There is another explanation for why Jack is growing stronger. Earlier he explained that "I am a fragment. A remnant which resides within Alice's memories. A fragment of Jack Vessalius' soul." Indeed, Oz only started sensing Jack when they recovered Alice first memory. By contracting with Black Rabbit, Oz has an intimate link with Alice, so maybe whatever she gains, he also gains, and so the pieces of Jack are coming together as her memories return. However, Jack seems to be very tied to the Black Rabbit (he appears most frequently when Oz uses Black Rabbit power, he gains more control, and I'd even say that Oz's homicidal tendencies in that state is Jack's yandere influence), yet Black Rabbit might not be entirely tied to Alice. Oz being able to use B-Rabbit power independently from her suggests they might be detachable, even separate. And now that the B-Rabbit seal is halfway, Lacie is appearing to Jack. Hmm...

phkuro wrote:
Jack and Glen continued their confrontation somewhere else until Glen kills Jack. Then, Glen sacrificed his body to seal Jack’s “mind”(?) or maybe the Abyss so that the world will regain its order or both. The thing is, the Barmas, the keepers of history, tampered with the original story and made Jack the hero
Is this a hypothetical? Cause I'm pretty sure Jack still killed Glen. We have his diaries after Tragedy, he knows that Gil failed to protect his master, and we have a flashback of him working with the sorcerers who sealed away Glen.
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Sakilya



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PostSubject: Re: Chapter 65   Sat Sep 24, 2011 12:39 pm

Wow, this chapter... was a real twist. (Though I believe we can expect some more to come).
I would just want to shout in some speculations/questions I have about the B-rabbits power... Is Oz/Jack "taking over the power, since Echo though that Alice wasa bit transparent. And if we flip that around, Break wondered "where" Oz was in the beginning of the series, and could only see a blurry form. And now the seal have gone halfway.
In short, i agree with that B-rabbits power is not tied down to Alice...
(Also, this is nothing to go on, but in the artbook "odds and ends" there is a sketch where Jack/Oz is the B-rabbit. Just wanted to mention it.)

I still believe that Oz is the reincarnation to Jack, even if Jack was not part of Vessalius, especially if he never had any blood ties to the family. I don't remember finding out if the reason Oz’s father hates him is because Oz is not truly his son... (sorry if this is wrong)

Otherwise I don't know what to make of this,.. Right now it feels like no one is truly evil, we just don't know their reasons yet.
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Xerxes Break
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter 65   Sat Sep 24, 2011 2:42 pm

i read the translated scans and i soooo can't wait for th next chapter the truth will be reaveled

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LoneNecromancer

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PostSubject: Re: Chapter 65   Sat Sep 24, 2011 11:27 pm

Jack has now been elevated to my list of favourite characters.

@Xerxes Break You know as well as I do that the next chapter will just be filled with more trolling. xD
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Vincent Nightray

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PostSubject: Re: Chapter 65   Sun Sep 25, 2011 12:48 am

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

JUST WHEN I THOUGHT I KNEW EVERYTHING oni014

Glen....and Jack....I don't even know what to say...

How did he do it?

VINCENT WAS A GOOD GUY O.o
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phkuro



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PostSubject: Re: Chapter 65   Sun Sep 25, 2011 1:54 am



phkuro wrote:
Jack and Glen continued their confrontation somewhere else until Glen kills Jack. Then, Glen sacrificed his body to seal Jack’s “mind”(?) or maybe the Abyss so that the world will regain its order or both. The thing is, the Barmas, the keepers of history, tampered with the original story and made Jack the hero
Is this a hypothetical? Cause I'm pretty sure Jack still killed Glen. We have his diaries after Tragedy, he knows that Gil failed to protect his master, and we have a flashback of him working with the sorcerers who sealed away Glen.[/quote]

yeah...it's hypothetical. I really think that the Barmas manipulated the records.
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Vincent Nightray

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PostSubject: Re: Chapter 65   Sun Sep 25, 2011 2:49 am

Though personally I am not of fan but I just thought of an idea.

From what we know of glen in previous chapters he is obsessed with lacie, his only light. Now Jack is saying the same things. When Gil was slashed Jack had tears in his eyes, and both glen AND Jack made the music box. My guess is that they were both madly in love with lacie and jack killed glen because he was a "hindrance" to him for being with her.

Personally I am not a big fan of this theory, but it is possible. It is the only explanation that I can really think of without everything that was said on glen and jack being a total lie.

IN OTHER NEWS

Gilbert Baskerville....What will he do now that his masters are bitter enemies? to whom is he more loyal ?
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RedEyedGhost

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PostSubject: Re: Chapter 65   Sun Sep 25, 2011 2:59 am

Vincent Nightray wrote:
When Gil was slashed Jack had tears in his eyes, and both glen AND Jack made the music box. My guess is that they were both madly in love with lacie and jack killed glen because he was a "hindrance" to him for being with her.
I do think they both loved her. Not sure if in the same way but, even if in the same way, how would that work? She was dead for a long while, so why would Jack try to fight this out with Glen years after she was gone? And why would he be genuine best friends with Glen all this time before that?

I really hate to accuse Glen of something like this - and I'm really not, it's just a hypothesis - but it's possible that Glen might've used Lacie to gain control over the Will. That was his expressed intention all along, after all. By sacrificing a pregnant Lacie to the Abyss, and having her give birth to a child/twins infused with the Will, he could have then retrieved Alice (one to take with him, and one to stay in the Abyss to keep the connection) and kept her locked away in that tower. That is, until it came time to finalize this process and claim control of the Abyss from Alice for himself, perhaps by sacrificing her too. Finding out something like this would horrify Jack, I think. Hence "...you want to use Alice??" Maybe finding out that Alice had developed a will of her own, or that Jack was planning to elope with her, could explain why Glen(?) decided to rush the procedure by ordering the massacre of Sablier to incapacitate Alyss (she was hurt by it).
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LoneNecromancer

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PostSubject: Re: Chapter 65   Sun Sep 25, 2011 11:49 am

Vincent Nightray wrote:
Though personally I am not of fan but I just thought of an idea.

From what we know of glen in previous chapters he is obsessed with lacie, his only light. Now Jack is saying the same things. When Gil was slashed Jack had tears in his eyes, and both glen AND Jack made the music box. My guess is that they were both madly in love with lacie and jack killed glen because he was a "hindrance" to him for being with her.

Personally I am not a big fan of this theory, but it is possible. It is the only explanation that I can really think of without everything that was said on glen and jack being a total lie.
I don't really see how that's possible at all because Lacie was long dead before Jack killed Glen. Dunno how that would "hinder" him being with her.
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Rufus Barma

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PostSubject: Re: Chapter 65   Sun Sep 25, 2011 1:30 pm

*speechless* this chapter freaked me right out of my skin. I always thought something was a bit off about Jack - when I started reading PH a thought ocurred to me. If any of you have read Crimson Shell, Jun's debut manga
Spoiler:
 
I read C-S before PH, so when it came to Oz/Jack I wondered whether Jun would use the same twist, but then I shook it off... hmmm...

Looking forward to an explanation! Oh and in the next chapter OMFG THERE'D BETTER BE AN EPIC BREAK VS RUFUS FIIIIIIGHT


Last edited by Rufus Barma on Sun Sep 25, 2011 4:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
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LoneNecromancer

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PostSubject: Re: Chapter 65   Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:17 pm

Rufus Barma wrote:
*speechless* this chapter freaked me right out of my skin. I always thought something was a bit off about Jack - when I started reading PH a thought ocurred to me. If any of you have read Crimson Shell, Jun's debut manga, then you'll know that the protaganist turns out to be the primary antagonist. I read C-S before PH, so when it came to Oz/Jack I wondered whether Jun would use the same twist, but then I shook it off... hmmm...

...well thanks for spoiling Crimson Shell for those of us who haven't read it.

And technically, we never saw anything in this chapter that said Jack would be the primary antagonist. All we really got from it is that he's stabbed a few people, really wants to take down Glen and like Glen, also loved Lacie.

I mean, not like Glen, who's still been trying to control the Abyss and murder hundreds of people.
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Rufus Barma

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PostSubject: Re: Chapter 65   Sun Sep 25, 2011 4:55 pm

Sorry - I should have put it in spoiler, I forgot.

No, I know that he may not be the prime antagonist, I was just musing that if he was there could be that connection
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Rufus Barma

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PostSubject: Re: Chapter 65   Sun Sep 25, 2011 4:56 pm

It has been corrected
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Reim Lunettes

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PostSubject: Re: Chapter 65   Sun Sep 25, 2011 5:22 pm

[My comments may contain ch 65 spoilers, but I trust that if you’ve read this far into the thread by now you’ve already read the chapter.]

@ phkuro I think it is true that Gilbert has the Baskerville wound-healing ability. I also like this idea of the Barma’s manipulating history. Whether or not it is true remains to be seen, but it would be rich (and in keeping with Jun Mochizuki’s tendency to turn characters around) if Mr. Truth-n-Information Rufus Barma turned out to be contributing to a campaign of mis-information.

@RedEyedGhost I thought the reason Oz was on the ground in that Jack panel was because Jack had squeezed him into unconsciousness. At least that is what it looked like on a previous page. But it having something to do with the strain on his body makes sense also. I think your hypothesis about Glen trying to use Lacie makes sense, too.

@ Sakilya Yeah I think it seems clear that B-Rabbit was never just Alice’s power. Jack told Oz that he “had the right” to use B-Rabbit’s power, and even if Jack was lying, Oz has been able to use the power more and more, and now since ch 65 it is clear that Jack can also use B-Rabbit’s power without permission from either Alice or Oz! It makes me wonder if B-Rabbit was originally Jack’s chain.

@ Vincent Nightray I LOVE your point about Gilbert and his two masters being enemies. I adore that sort of quandary in a story! And I think there is something to the theory that Jack and Glen both loved Lacie…I’ve heard the theory elsewhere, and it makes sense. Although I, too, am not a huge fan of the trope of two men fighting over a woman. I hope if it’s a love triangle, there’s a brilliant twist to it. And I trust that if anyone can come up with a brilliant plot twist on the stale cliché of the love triangle it will be Jun Mochizuki!
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Alice Baskerville

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PostSubject: Re: Chapter 65   Mon Sep 26, 2011 4:38 am

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Spoiler:
 

*BRUSTES OUT CRYING*
NOO!!!!!!!!!

. . . Jack! . . . There are some hints. . . That . . . Wait! Let me find my book! *10 Seconds to Check*
BOOK 6 WHEN OZ MEET ELIOT & LEO.
Leo was reading a book, and he said, "Nnn... I never thought Jackie would be the culprit... What a surprise." . . . Ehhh! TT^TT . . . AND! AND ANOTHER HINT! . . . Eliot said that, A Valent dies in Holy Knight, Around. . UHH. BOOK 16. . . Which this is BOOK 16! D< . . . & Gilbert, and Leo are the Valents!! Who is gonna die. . . . . . NOO!! This is ALL GONE WRONG!! -So. . . Heartbroken- . . . . . :c
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Reim Lunettes

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PostSubject: Re: Chapter 65   Mon Sep 26, 2011 4:57 am

@Audria B-Rabbit I don't think Gilbert is going to die because...

Spoiler:
 

That's an interesting observation about "Jackie" being the culprit and a valet dying in book 16. I wouldn't put it past Jun Mochizuki to plant hints like that.

The chapters for volume 16 have already come out I believe, and they are:
Retrace LXII: "Repose"
Retrace LXIII: "Purpose"
Retrace LXIV: "Tarantelle"
Retrace LXV: "Collapse"
I think if any valet died in recent chapters it was that Leo's life as a valet "died" and no he is no longer one.
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Alice Baskerville

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PostSubject: Re: Chapter 65   Mon Sep 26, 2011 5:18 am

Ahhh . I see. xD
I had the books 1-6 English Version, so Yeah. I read it almost every week per book.
( . . I love pandora hearts <3 . . . )
I was just thinking. . BUT WAIT.


Who made LACIE pregant?! D<

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Rufus Barma

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PostSubject: Re: Chapter 65   Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:15 am

Audria, I think that although its a possibility that lacie was made pregnant at all, nothing like that may have actually happened. If so, I doubt it was Jack, and I'd think it to be Glen - Alice and Alyss look nothing like Jack to me Razz
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter 65   Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:29 am

Well SOMEBODY was pregnant. XD

The Alices were "nurtured in the womb of [a] human, [and] born in the Abyss."
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LoneNecromancer

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PostSubject: Re: Chapter 65   Mon Sep 26, 2011 3:07 pm

Rufus Barma wrote:
Audria, I think that although its a possibility that lacie was made pregnant at all, nothing like that may have actually happened. If so, I doubt it was Jack, and I'd think it to be Glen - Alice and Alyss look nothing like Jack to me Razz

Whether they look like Jack is inconsequential. We have no idea just how much effect the Abyss can have on unborn children. If anything, you could say that the Abyss made Alice and Alyss resemble their mother more instead of the father because they look far too much like Lacie.

And count yourself lucky Alice/Alyss look the way they do. I've seen what some other manga do to children affected by cosmic forces while in the womb. They could've ended up looking like this.

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PostSubject: Re: Chapter 65   Mon Sep 26, 2011 4:45 pm

@LoneNecromancer LOL pic!

It's true that someone must have been pregnant with Alice and "Alyss" but we don't know who yet. Lacie is a darn good guess, really, the best we have under the circumstances. As for the father, we'll just have to see!
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LoneNecromancer

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PostSubject: Re: Chapter 65   Mon Sep 26, 2011 5:24 pm

Reim Lunettes wrote:
@LoneNecromancer LOL pic!
...it's actually quite tragic in the story. pale
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter 65   Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:28 pm

LoneNecromancer wrote:
Reim Lunettes wrote:
@LoneNecromancer LOL pic!
...it's actually quite tragic in the story. pale

It's a scary pic, actually. But I'm not familiar with the story.
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter 65   Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:29 pm

Oh! I’m late again!
I just read the chapter now and… Oh My God, Oh My God, Oh My God! oni031

I want to jump right down to the main plot of this discussion, but I’ll calm myself down a bit before I start rampaging around.

So, Lady Rainsworth isn’t dead! Oh, I’m so happy for that! Very Happy And Barma did attack her (even though he didn’t kill her) and stole the Rainsworth key. Ok, I’m not happy for that at all… Rolling Eyes

So, Oz seal is half completed? I’ve been begging to know about its progression for so many chapters (thank you Jun!) and now I finally got to know. And it tells me nothing. [I truly thought it would be a little closer to completion, but ya, I’m sort of happy it isn’t… I guess…]

Why did Alice's body went transparent when Oz used B-Rabbit’s power?! WHY? Somebody?

Ha-Ha, Oz Punched Leo! XD Good right hook, ah? Go Oz!


OK, NO MORE STALLING, I CAN’T TAKE IT ANY LONGER!
HERE I GO! ---»
I always knew Jack was not as good as everybody believed, I always believed he was bad enough to be Alice’s murderer (still, not BAD), but this, this is… OMG! I can’t even form a rational thought about it!

First Jack attacked Leo! Jack attacked him just like that! And I was like “Wow!”.

Then, seconds later it’s told that Jack attacked Gil. And that Glen tried to warn Gil off! And after that we learn that Gil was Glen's servant!!! [That was when my head went into overload…]

Then, Jack not only attacked Leo out of the blue, he also wants Oz to finish him! And Oz is unconscious in Jack’s dimension?! That can’t be good.

The guy with the big ragged cloak in the street was Jack! Lacie came to HIM! Not to Glen! OMG! Lacie was Jack’s lover? That’s why he was so interested in being Alice’s friend? But Glen loved Lacie (too?) ! Were the problems between them both all based upon jealously?! [Did Lacie dye because of Glen’s plans and Jack was so hurt he was up to do everything, anything to stop him, even if it meant he had to kill Gil? That he had to kill Alice? That he had to kill Leo?]

The hero was Glen?! [Hmmm, I still think not.] Jack was the bad guy all along?! [Actually, I always kind of felt it was something like that, even though I didn’t exactly have a reason…] I mean,… it was Glen’s head inside the sealing stone after all. (That means that the soul they were trying to keep sealed was actually Jack’s soul? The one that is inside of Oz? The one that is getting stronger by the hour? The one that just knocked Oz out inside of himself?!)

If you read that part where Gil remembers Jack was the one who attacked him, Jack was trying to stop Glen. And he wants Oz to kill Leo because he SAYS Glen is bad [can we believe him?], but then why are Glen’s body parts inside the sealing stones? Jack was lying all the time and, as he was one of the few (the only?) survivors of Sablier, no one could say otherwise! Is that it?!

Why can’t I believe that? I always believed Jack had done some pretty bad things after all, so it wouldn’t be difficult to me to believe that... But somehow I think Jack did all those bad things for the same reason I still believe he was also the one who killed Alice: He thought he was somehow doing those things for some “greater good”, I think he believed it didn’t matter what he had to do, he just had to stop Glen.

I think RedEyeGhost’s theories are very good (as always), I don’t think there is a point of me presenting my own theories right now because I think she has already said it all .
And... well... I'll just go refresh my head a bit, maybe I'll get a little bit sober about all this inebriating information... oni046



“Do you really want to make me happy?! Get your personal life in order! Quit Hacking up dolls!” – Gil
"But I... I've never had a fight like that with a friend... and as for punching... that's really the best I can do...” – Oz
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